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NBA AM: Paul Battling for 76ers Roster Spot

Brandon Paul talked to Basketball Insiders about fighting for a roster spot at Philadelphia 76ers training camp.

Alex Kennedy

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During NBA Summer League, it’s no secret that many players like have a good time. After all, many of these prospects are in their late teens or early 20s and this is the first time that they get to experience anything close to the NBA lifestyle. In fact, for some it’s the only time.

In July, Las Vegas clubs are often full of very tall men wearing NBA warm-ups (players love donning these out in public since they’re extremely comfortable and, more importantly, let everyone know, “Oh, yeah, I play for the team. No big deal…”). Even for unknown players who are just on a Summer League contract, it’s relatively easy to get V.I.P. treatment and free drinks at a club by playing the NBA card. Many players know this and enjoy their time in Las Vegas.

However, some players want nothing to do with the extracurricular activities and treat Summer League like a business trip. Take Brandon Paul, for example. At 25 years old, he played in both the Orlando Summer League and Las Vegas Summer League this year, and he entered each event with one thing on his mind: Earn an NBA contract.

Paul isn’t a wide-eyed kid who’s excited to be around the NBA festivities. He has played Summer League in the past, suited up in the NBA D-League and even had stints in Russia and Spain. For Paul, Summer League wasn’t about enjoying the Las Vegas nightlife and partying. This was his chance to show NBA executives, coaches and scouts what he can do on the court, how he carries himself and why he belongs on an NBA roster this upcoming season.

Last July, Paul wasn’t able to participate in Summer League due to a shoulder injury, making him even hungrier to shine this time around. He did just that, and his professional approach paid off.

Paul played for the Charlotte Hornets in the Orlando Summer League. He scored double digit points in his first four games, including a 17-point, 11-rebound, two-assist, two-steal, two-block outing against the Oklahoma City Thunder that impressed NBA decision-makers. He was confident and comfortable on the floor, and he carried himself like a veteran. With Charlotte, he ultimately averaged 15.3 points, 7.3 rebounds, 1.5 assists and 1.5 steals while shooting 39.1 percent from three-point range.

The Philadelphia 76ers liked what they saw and asked Paul to join them in Las Vegas. Once he arrived and got acclimated, he did well and made his presence felt all over the court. He had an 18-point, six-steal, two-rebound outing against the Brooklyn Nets. In a win over the D-League Select Team, he had 20 points, six rebounds and two steals in 24 minutes (while shooting 4-6 from three-point range). Over the final three games of Summer League with Philadelphia, Paul averaged 16.3 points, 3.3 rebounds and three steals in 25 minutes per game.

Philadelphia was so impressed that they signed Paul to a partially guaranteed contract. He will attend training camp with the 76ers on a $543,471 salary (of which $155,000 is guaranteed). It’s worth noting that Paul’s $155,000 is more money than Robert Covington, Hollis Thompson, Jerami Grant, T.J. McConnell, Shawn Long and James Webb have guaranteed to them in their own partial or non-guaranteed deals.

At first glance, it may seem like Paul is a long shot to make Philadelphia’s roster. After all, they have 20 players coming to training camp. However, a closer look reveals that only 11 of those players have a fully guaranteed deal – meaning there’s an opportunity for Paul and others to make the team and even carve out a spot in the rotation. Given the Sixers’ needs in the backcourt, Paul felt confident betting on himself with this situation.

At the very least, Paul will earn a six-figure payday for his camp commitment, which then would likely lead to a spot with the Sixers’ D-League affiliate (the Delaware 87ers) and the possibility of a midseason call-up. Philly clearly likes Paul’s game, so this could be a smart route for him to take.

After thriving in Summer League, grinding in the D-League and going abroad to Russia and Spain, the 25-year-old guard is closer to achieving his NBA dream than ever before.

Basketball Insiders caught up with Paul to discuss his professional journey, why he chose to sign with the 76ers, what he can bring to Philadelphia’s roster, what he learned overseas and much more.

Alex Kennedy: What was the moment like when you officially signed with the 76ers? I know you’ve been working toward this for a long time, so how did it feel to achieve that goal?

Brandon Paul: “It was great, real humbling. Just thinking about all of the stuff I went through and all of the hard work I put in – especially this past summer – it was just a really exciting moment. It didn’t really come as a shock, but it was hard to put my thoughts in words when I got the call from my agent, Adam Pensack. It’s a great feeling.”

Kennedy: After your performance in Summer League, there were quite a few teams showing interest in you. How did you decide on the 76ers?

Paul: “I just felt like, all around, it was the best decision for me to come in and compete. They obviously have a young roster and I kind of bring in a little bit of maturity to that roster. Obviously, I’m relatively young as well. But around those guys, I’m kind of the older one and I’m a little more seasoned because I played overseas and in the D-League. I think I can bring a little bit of toughness and maturity to the roster.”

Kennedy: You played in Russia and Spain. How was your experience overseas, and how did it help you grow as a player and as a person?

Paul: “I mean, it’s definitely tough for a player coming out of college to go overseas and kind of build their resume over there. A lot of guys feel like if they don’t get the NBA right away then it might not happen; I just had the mindset of staying positive and staying the course. I definitely think it helped a lot. It helped shape me as a player and as a man. I learned a lot about myself because you have a lot of alone time when you’re living more secluded. Your family and friends aren’t around – it’s just you and your team – so I definitely think playing over there helped me grow a lot more.”

Kennedy: You had to overcome a number of obstacles to get to this point, from going undrafted to dealing with various injuries. How frustrating were those setbacks at the time, and does it make your current success even sweeter?

Paul: “It was definitely frustrating – especially because the injuries occurred at, I would say, some of the worst times. Every time I had another opportunity, a setback happened. Everyone’s got their story and I’m just kind of building mine up. I think the mental aspect was a lot tougher than it was physically. The rehab was brutal, but from a mental point, you’re kind of like, ‘Why does this keep happening? Is it going to happen again?’ I have a good circle around me, though, and I just stayed positive no matter what. People were asking me questions about it like, ‘How do you feel?’ and I just kept speaking positively. I think that helped me get to where I am right now.”

Kennedy: You’ve always had a chip on shoulder and used different slights as motivation. What’s your mindset entering training camp with the 76ers?

Paul: “I just have to go in and do what I do. I’ve always been a hard worker and I’ve always prided myself on working harder than others around me. It’s not about trying to prove anything – that’s just really all I know, that’s how I grew up, that’s what I was taught. I plan on competing every single day and just showing guys that it’s nothing personal, it’s just basketball. When I go out there, I got a team out there, but it’s not about making friends. It’s about playing and getting yourself better and getting the team better. I just want to go out there and just kill every day and prove myself. I want to prove to the staff that I deserve a roster spot.”

Kennedy: It seemed like that was your approach in Summer League too. You weren’t messing around out there – you were looking to take someone’s job.

Paul: “I unfortunately missed some opportunities the last couple summers because of injuries, so just getting the Summer League opportunity with Charlotte and then Philly was a great experience and I appreciate all of the help they gave me.

“I knew when I was going to Vegas that it was just another opportunity to open some eyes up. Every day you step on the court, it’s a job interview and I used it. I wanted to prove myself – regardless of who was in the stands – that I’m an NBA player who can do multiple things for a team.”

Kennedy: For fans in Philadelphia who may not know your game all that well, what will you bring to this 76ers team?

Paul: “They’ll get a guy who competes extremely hard and enjoys playing both ends of the floor. I understand that 90-93 percent of individuals in the league are role players and I’m ready to come in and just do whatever role I need to in order to help the team be successful and help myself be successful and continue to build my resume. I’ve been known as a scorer my whole career and I score the ball at a high level, but at the same time I’m capable of guarding multiple positions and I definitely use my length to my advantage. I think that as I continue this process I’ll be able to show more and more people my capabilities as an athlete and as a pro.”

Kennedy: It seems strange to say, but you’re one of older guys on this Sixers squad at 25 years old. With your maturity and experience playing professionally, are you looking to take on a leadership role and helping some of these young guys in Philly?

Paul: “I think that’s something that the staff enjoys about me – that I’m seasoned. I played all throughout college, I played overseas for a couple of seasons and I have experience in the D-League. Those experiences help me to bring that maturity and the professionalism to this stage as well so any chance I get, I try to talk to them and pass on a little bit of my knowledge. I see myself as the rookie and the vet. Yes, it’s my first year on this stage, but at the same time it’s my fourth professional year so I’m not new to this.”

Kennedy: Two Drake lyrics in one answer! That was awesome.

Paul: “I just realized that. Literally as I said it, I realized it (laughs).”

Kennedy: Since Summer League, what has your offseason training been like?

Paul: “I’ve been all over the place training – Las Vegas, Charlotte, Chicago and now Philadelphia. It’s really just been a lot of rigorous workouts. I’m working on my explosion, my quickness, my shot consistency and being able to finish with contact.”

For more of our one-on-one interviews, check out our recent conversations with Boston Celtics point guard Isaiah Thomas, Los Angeles Lakers guard D’Angelo Russell, Indiana Pacers guard Jeff Teague, Portland Trail Blazers guard C.J. McCollum, Orlando Magic forward Aaron Gordon, Oklahoma City Thunder guard Victor Oladipo, Atlanta Hawks swingman Kent Bazemore, New York Knicks guard Courtney Lee, Indiana Pacers center Myles Turner, Los Angeles Lakers forward Larry Nance Jr., Atlanta Hawks forward DeAndre Bembry, New Orleans Pelicans guard E’Twaun Moore and Sacramento Kings swingman Garrett Temple.

Alex Kennedy is the Managing Editor of Basketball Insiders and this is his 10th season covering the NBA. He is a member of the Professional Basketball Writers Association.

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NBA Daily: Are The Knicks For Real?

Ariel Pacheco breaks down the New York Knicks and their start to the season. Might they be able to push for a spot in the postseason?

Ariel Pacheco

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The New York Knicks are on a four-game losing streak after their hot 5-3 start to the season. Yes, their play has been inconsistent, but their effort has yet to wane. And, while they are currently 11th in the Eastern Conference, the team has some solid wins under their belt and has seen, arguably, their best start in years.

Head coach Tom Thibodeau’s fingerprints are all over this team. Combined with the positive start, it begs the question: do the Knicks have enough talent to compete for a playoff spot in the East? 

The Knicks have been competitive mainly due to Julius Randle; he’s played like an All-Star to start the season to the tune of 22.8 points, 10.8 rebounds and 6.8 assists per game. Randle’s drastic improvement from a season ago has been a major boon to New York, as he’s kept them in close games and, at times, been their lone source of offense. His stat line would put him in elite company, as one of only four to average at least 20, 10 and 5 this season.

The other three? Giannis Antetokounmpo, Nikola Jokic and Domantas Sabonis. 

Behind him, Mitchell Robinson has been the Knicks’ second-best player so far. He’s third in the NBA in offensive rebounds and 10th in blocks. Beyond that, it’s hard to overstate how impactful he’s been on the defensive end — when he’s off the court, the Knicks’ defense completely craters. And, while his offensive game is limited to mostly dunks and layups, Robinson provides the team a vertical threat in the paint with his elite lob-catching skills. 

Kevin Knox II has also shown signs of becoming a rotation-level NBA player. He’s shot 41.7% from three and, while he still needs work on defense, he hasn’t been nearly as detrimental the team’s efforts on that end as as he has in years past.

Still, there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical. First and foremost, they lack the shooting to consistently put teams away and win games. And, of course, teams have taken advantage of that, as the Knicks have faced a zone defense — an effective defense, but one that can easily be shut down by a consistent presence beyond the three-point line —  in every single game they’ve played this season. Of every Knick that has shot over 20 threes this season, Austin Rivers and Kevin Knox II are the only two that have shot above 35%, while no starter has shot above league average from deep on the season. During their latest four-game losing streak, they’ve shot just 31% from deep as a team.

RJ Barrett, who has really struggled to shoot the ball from all over the floor to start the year, is arguably New York’s biggest culprit here. Currently, Barrett has shot a bad 37.2% from the field, an even worse 18.5% from three and a better but still below average 70.2% from the free throw line. He’s also struggled to finish near the basket. Of course, more spacing in lineups that feature Barrett, as opposed to the clogged lanes he stares down alongside guys like Randle and Robinson, could go a long way in improving those numbers.

But, unfortunately, the Knicks just don’t have the personnel, or depth, for that matter, that they can afford to take those guys off the floor for extended minutes and expect to succeed. There’s hope that Alec Burks’ return could provide some much-needed range and scoring punch from the bench, but Burks alone might not be enough to turn things around here.

The Knicks have also been lucky when it comes to their opponent’s shooting. Opponents have shot just 32.8% from three against the Knicks, well below league average. On three-point attempts that are wide-open, which the NBA defines as a shot in which no defender is within six feet of the shooter, opponents have shot just 33.9%. If that number sees some positive regression — and it likely will as the season goes on — New York may struggle to stay in games. 

There are a litany of other issues as well. The point guard position is certainly an area of concern; Elfrid Payton’s range barely extends beyond the free throw line, while Dennis Smith Jr. just hasn’t looked like the same, explosive player we saw with the Dallas Mavericks and Frank Ntilikina has struggled with injuries to start the year. Immanuel Quickley has looked solid with limited minutes, but Thibodeau has been reluctant to start him or even expand his role. And, as there is with every Thibodeau team, there could be legitimate concern over the workload of his top players: Barrett is first in the NBA in minutes played, Randle is third.

Right now, there would seem to be a lot more questions than answers for the Knicks. As currently constructed, they certainly can’t be penciled in as a playoff team. There’s too much evidence that suggests they won’t be able to consistently win games. 

That said, New York should be somewhat satisfied with their start to the season. And, if they continue to compete hard, tighten up the defense and if their younger players can take a step forward (especially from beyond the arc), they might just be able to squeeze into the play-in game in the softer Eastern Conference.

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NBA Daily: Raul Neto Seizing His Opportunity in Washington

Tristan Tucker examines Raul Neto who, in the midst of a career resurgence, has provided the Washington Wizards with some much-needed stability at the point guard position in the absence of Russell Westbrook.

Tristan Tucker

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Washington Wizards guard Raul Neto is coming off one of the more disappointing seasons of his career. Waived by the Utah Jazz, Neto joined a Philadelphia 76ers’ roster in 2019 that had some serious championship aspirations. Unfortunately, like the 76ers, Neto’s season fell flat.

For many former second round picks, a rough season could signal the conclusion of a career. But not for Neto, who has persevered and turned his career around to start the 2020-21 season.

Neto exploded onto the scene for the Wizards and has really shown an ability to hold it down on the court, especially in the wake of Russell Westbrook’s injury. He’s averaged career-highs almost across the board so far, recording 8.9 points and 1 steal per contest on outstanding percentages; Neto’s shot 52.7 from the field and 42.4 percent from three, both by far the highest of his career and, among Wizards with at least 10 games played, rank fifth and sixth on the team, respectively.

“I think I have been around different teams and I try and do whatever the team needs on the court,” Neto said. “If it needs to play with more pace or if it needs more scoring, I will try and do whatever I can to help. I think that’s how I fit so quickly on the team.”

Neto began his professional career in Brazil when he was just 16 years old, playing for the World Team in 2010 at the Nike Hoop Summit and then heading to Spain for the 2011-12 season. After two impressive seasons, the 28-year-old point guard was selected with the 47th pick in the 2013 NBA Draft by the Atlanta Hawks. Atlanta then traded Neto to the Jazz where he eventually signed on for the 2015-16 NBA season.

Immediately, Neto was cast into a big role with the Jazz, starting in the season opener and starting in 53 of his 81 appearances that season. His efforts earned him a spot as a member of the World Team in the 2016 Rising Stars Challenge.

Neto would go on to play a majority of his next three seasons in the G-League, finding a hard time sticking to a role that suited him in Utah. When Philadelphia tried to remake its roster in the 2019 offseason, Neto was called in to give the team an able-shooting ball-handler, one that they desperately needed. However, Neto was, again, miscast and, while he was getting good minutes, the team as a whole struggled to find their identity and, as a result, everyone’s play suffered.

In the 2020 offseason, Neto was able to find a roster spot on the Wizards, who saw him as a potential diamond-in-the-rough type and a player that they should take a chance on. And their gamble has paid huge dividends as, at the moment, Neto has given Washington a reliable piece to play next to All-Star Bradley Beal.

“[Neto] does a tremendous job of running the team, running the offense,” Beal said after a Wizards’ preseason game. “He gets after it, he’s a real pest. I always make fun of him because he has a strong build…he’s very strong.”

Traits that likely stood out to Washington were Neto’s calm demeanor and his ability to run the offense, something that a few of his younger teammates could learn from and, hopefully, pick up themselves. Players like Deni Avdija and Rui Hachimura have shown much promise as scorers and playmakers and should continue to benefit from players like Neto that are able to get them the ball accurately and consistently.

“Deni [Avdija]’s very talented, he’s very very talented,” Neto said. “He’s young so he’s got a lot to learn and get better. He’s a very good player, he’s been playing professionally overseas for a while…Rui [Hachimura] is also a very good player. Strong, plays hard and very good defense. Probably going to be our guy, like today he was guarding [Kevin Durant], he can go against guys in this league that are tall and can score.”

While the Wizards are in the midst of a disappointing season, something that may prove worthwhile in the long run may be to give Neto, who’s averaged just under 17 minutes per game, a larger role, perhaps as the team’s sixth man. When Neto is on the floor, Washington’s already potent offense gets even better — multiple lineups that feature Neto have posted an offensive rating of at least 130 points per 100 possessions — and, while it isn’t that cut-and-dry, it would behoove the Wizards to experiment and see what he can do in a larger role.

“I just try to play my game,” Neto said. “With my new team, I’m trying to understand my teammates and play the game the way Scott [Brooks] wants us to play and just move the ball and be a player out there that tries to help the team and do whatever I have to do. If I have to shoot, if I have to score depending on who I am on the court…”

“I think, number-wise, I did great,” Neto said after the Wizards’ preseason opener. “I think there’s always room for improvement and I think I’m going to work on that and take advantage of my opportunities.”

“[Neto] has heart, he has grit, he has everything we need,” Beal said. “He can shoot the leather off the ball which is what I love about him too.”

Neto isn’t the solution to all of Washington’s problems — of which, there are many — but there’s no denying the impact he’s had, even in his short time with the team. With the turnaround he’s seen, Neto has not only proven that he belongs in the NBA, but that he can serve as a solid veteran spot-starter or bench piece. Not just for a Washington team that can use just about anyone right now, either, but for any team looking for a consistent shooter and leader on the court.

“It’s easy when you have teammates like we do,” Neto said following a preseason game. “I’m just trying to work hard and play the right way. I think we have improved…we’re still going to get better.”

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NBA

Point-Counter Point: Where Should The NBA Expand?

For the first time since 2004 when the NBA allowed Charlotte to have a second go at a franchise, the NBA is seriously entertaining the idea of expansion. The NBA, like many businesses, has seen its revenue ravaged by the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and could look to monetize new markets as a means to recover some of those losses, the burning question remains, where to expand?

Basketball Insiders

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From time to time there are things that surface in the NBA landscape that requires a little debate, we call that Point – Counter Point. We have asked two our of writers to dive into the topic of NBA expansion, which for the first time since 2004 when the NBA allowed Charlotte to have a second go at a franchise, the NBA is seriously entertaining the idea of expansion,

The NBA, like many businesses, has seen its revenue ravaged by the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and could look to monetize new markets as a means to recover some of those losses, the burning question remains, where to expand?

The most popular candidate among cities that haven’t been home to an NBA franchise previously is Las Vegas, whihc makes a ton of sense and has to be a heavy favorite if the NBA does expand.

The market and potential for revenue have long made sense from a financial perspective, but the stigma around ‘Sin City’ was an issue. Things have changed quickly, though, and professional sports and the public, in general, are much more accepting of sports gambling than in previous years.

The NHL was the first professional league to enter the market with the Las Vegas Golden Knights in 2017. The team won the Stanley Cup in their first year as an expansion team and have quickly become a popular team in the league.

The WNBA and NFL have since joined the NHL in Las Vegas with the Aces (WNBA) and LAs Vegas Raiders (NFL). The NBA could soon be joining them. Vegas is the 28th most populous city in the U.S. and generates a ton of traffic from all over the world. It just makes too much sense.

Another reason it’s only a matter of time is the NBA’s already established in the city as a league. For years the NBA Summer League has been held in the area and it has become quite a popular event. Many from the industry attend, from media to players.

Finally, Vegas has a home stadium ready to go in T-Mobile Arena.

London could be a huge move for the league and sports in general, but the timing isn’t right. Given the current circumstances in the world, London doesn’t seem as likely as other cities. That’s unfortunate, as it makes a ton of sense from the league’s perspective. Not only would it be the first NBA franchise to be based in Europe, but it would also beat the other major U.S. sports leagues in getting there.

The timing would be great too, as the league has a number of up-and-coming players from Europe. That’s caused an increase in popularity worldwide, so surely fans would be excited to get a team of their own.

Given the things that would have to be worked out to have a team playing so far from most of the league, it’s hard to imagine the NBA going through those obstacles on top of the global situation as of today. Patience will be key for London, but it’s one of the best options if things were different right now.

The last two cities that come to mind in terms of contending cities are Mexico City and Louisville. While the NBA would be wise to wait to expand overseas, Mexico City could be a great option. There’s an untapped market south of the U.S. border and it would be much easier to add to the league in short order than somewhere in Europe.

Louisville makes sense as well as a city that offers a market not being maximized by the league. It’s a great basketball city for college hoops, as is the state of Kentucky in general. Residents would buy in right away and it may offer the most loyal fanbase the NBA can establish in little time.

– Garrett Brook


The city that immediately comes to mind when thinking of expansion in the NBA Is Seattle. Home to the SuperSonics from 1967-2008, the team was a staple of the city before being bought in 2006 and subsequently moved to Oklahoma City two years later.

The SuperSonics had a lot of success in Seattle during their 41-year stint, making the playoffs 22 times, the NBA Finals three times and taking home one NBA Championship in 1979. The SuperSonics have maintained national relevance since their departure.

In a poll done by the Herald Net at the beginning of the year, 48 percent of responders said it was “very important” to bring the SuperSonics back to Seattle. In a Twitter poll done by a journalist at the same newspaper, 77 percent of respondents said that it was “very important” to bring the SuperSonics back. And, because the NHL is expanding to Seattle, the city is currently building a brand new $930 million stadium.

One of the primary reasons the team pulled out of Seattle in the first place was because the team wanted a new stadium, and the city refused to invest the money necessary to build one. All of this packaged together with Seattle’s rapid growth as a city, over 400,000 people have moved to the Seattle metro area since the SuperSonics left, which means if the NBA decides to expand, don’t be surprised if Seattle is the immediate favorite.

Another city that comes to mind when speaking of expansion is Vancouver, the former home of the Memphis Grizzlies.

The Vancouver Grizzlies didn’t have much success in their six seasons, thanks mainly to poor management in the front office. If given a more successful team, Vancouver could play host to an NBA team yet again.

Attendance started in the middle part of the league in the Grizzlies opening couple of seasons in the NBA, showing that there is interest in basketball in the area, but as the team continued to struggle year after year, they slipped to the back half of the league.

Another reason cited for the Grizzlies’ departure from Vancouver was the value of the Canadian dollar at the time compared to American dollars; that is less of an issue now as the Canadian dollar has become much closer in value to the American dollar over the last 20 years. It stands to reason that a good team would draw more interest than it did in their first run in the city, especially with the sport of basketball growing in Canada as a whole.

If the NBA wants a team further east, Pittsburgh is a city with a passionate group of sports fans that would almost certainly rally around a team were they to have success early on. Pittsburgh features successful franchises in the NHL, NFL and MLB, so it stands to reason an NBA franchise would succeed in the city as well. There would also be no worries over having to build a stadium in Pittsburgh since the Penguins stadium, PPG Paints Arena, has a capacity of 19,758, which is more than the average capacity for an NBA arena.

Kansas City is another place that has a lot of basketball history, even if it was over 35 years ago. The Sacramento Kings were initially located in Kansas City from 1972-1985 and even made the Western Conference Finals in the 1980-81 season with a team that featured former Wizards’ general manager Ernie Grunfeld. Kansas City did struggle with attendance during that period, but since 1985 the city of Kansas City has grown quite a lot, with the city’s population going from 1.15 million in 1985 to nearly 1.7 million at the start of 2021. Plus, the success of the Chiefs and Royals have both had in the city in recent years – both have won championships in the last 10 years – indicates that an NBA franchise would have the ability to succeed there as well.

– Zach Dupont

EDITORIAL NOTE: While the NBA is exploring the viability of expansion, there is no timeline currently being discussed. Obviously, with the current state of the pandemic, NBA expansion is not going to happen soon, but as the world normalizes in a post-vaccine world, expansion seems more likely in the NBA than it has in almost two decades, so expect to hear more about this topic.

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